Let's Talk Clermont

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Episode 10 of Let's Talk Clermont. We look at who’s funding local political campaigns and why it matters. Then, Greg Roberts joins us to talk about the often overlooked legacy of Ulysses S. Grant and how Clermont County helped shape him. We also highlight a rare bird sighting, recommend a great movie, preview local events, and share a new “Olive-ism”. 

[00:00:11] Unknown:

We've been living in sin so long.   All   Welcome to episode 10 of Let's Talk Clermont.   We really appreciate you listening, and we really appreciate all the support we've been getting.   All the people liking and sharing and downloading the episodes, it's going really well. We're getting   a lot of traction, and, that's   mainly due to the people who are listening. So thank you very much.   And we're also getting new listeners. So if you are new, I'll just tell you what's going on here. In the first part of these podcasts,   we'll talk about some news. We'll look at bills that are in the Ohio legislature. We'll look at local news stories. We will look at town,   town council meetings,   county,   commissioner meetings,   any public notifications,   things like that. And then we'll move into the interview.  

And then if you stick around, after the interview, we'll talk about some events that you can go to around the county.   So let's get into it. For this episode, I didn't really find anything, at least in nothing I wanna talk about right now at the,   at the, state level,   and for the local level at that for that matter. It seemed pretty quiet. So I thought it would be interesting to look at local political funding,   to see who's giving money to local campaigns.   I I do wanna say that this isn't   this isn't an exercise in, you know, like, exposing corruption or shady deals or anything like that. I just think, you know, there are,   interests in the county that are spending money on political campaigns, and I think it's good that we know who those   who that is.  

And, you know, frankly, if somebody gives you a couple grand for your political campaign,   you're probably gonna answer the phone when they call, and you're probably gonna listen to what they have to say. So,   I will say this is this is kind of hard information to gather. You have to go to the county election site.   You have to search through their records, and it's not the most user friendly site. So I did the best I could, and I'm just gonna keep looking into this, and I'll keep reporting on things that I find that I think are interesting.   So,   I'm also   I'm also not gonna talk about any individual   donors or private citizens. I it's public information, and you can look it up if you'd like to.  

I just didn't think it was very appropriate to talk about private individuals   on a public podcast and, you know, just tell people how they're   spending their money. But if you wanna look that up, you can.   Outside of individuals, though, there were a few entities that kept popping up, and most of them were PACs, political action committees,   that I thought were interesting that you should know about.   And, you know, there were some organizations that you'd expect, like the Republican Party,   I'm sure is no surprise,   spends quite a bit of money in in Claremont County.  

There were other organizations like the Fraternal Order of Police, you know, stuff like that.   But the three that I thought were interesting,   the first one   is the Ohio Realtors PAC. Now from their website, it says, it add they advocate for policies that protect private property rights,   support a strong real estate market, and empower realtors to make a difference at the local, state, and national   levels.   So it's a real estate industry pack, and they're gonna support   pro development agendas   and pro development candidates,   which probably isn't shocking because if, you know, you're a realtor, you need houses to sell in.  

You know, new houses are are is inventory, and it helps you,   in your business.   The next one I found was the operating engineers local 18 pack.   This is backed by the International Union of Operating Engineers,   and   they support,   pro infrastructure candidates and pro infrastructure   agendas,   that advance the union's interest in things like public works, development, and job creation.   And the last one was the affiliated construction trades act Ohio pack.   And this is an umbrella pack for unionized,   construction trades,   and it's gonna support candidates,   that are supportive to construction projects and labor initiatives,   labor policies.  

So those were the three that I found that I thought were interesting. And I think there's a definite through line that there are a lot of pro development interests,   in Clermont County,   which, again, probably isn't surprising since   Claremont County is developing.   So so that's what I found. And like I said, it is kinda tough to find this stuff and piece it all together.   But I'm gonna keep doing it, and and I'll let you know if there's anything interesting that I find.   And and, again, this is not an exercise   in rooting out corruption or anything like that.  

It's just, I think, good to know   organizations that are spending money on political campaigns, who they are, and why they're doing that.   Alright. So it this is probably a little bit lighter news.   There was a rare bird sighting, a glossy ibis, which is   normally native to Florida and The Caribbean,   was spotted on May 28 at Abby's Farm.   And they it's a migratory bird, so they think it was blown off course,   and just wound up at Abby's Farm.   And as of Friday, May 30, it is still there, just kinda doing bird stuff.   And it if you wanna go look at it or try to take a picture or something like that, you do need to give Abby's Farm a call to schedule a viewing.  

The farm's private property, and you can't just go traipsing around,   taking pictures of birds.   So   give them a call if you wanna check check out that, glossy Ibis.   This is also a good segue to the first ever   Let's Talk Claremont   movie recommendation.   It's a movie by the name of Rare Birds. I think it came out maybe in the early two thousands.   And it's a it's a really good love story. It's a very, very funny funny comedy.   The premise is that there is a a failing restaurant, and the owner of the restaurant and his friend   kind of manufacture a rare bird sighting to get people to come   to this location and also to the restaurant.  

I don't I don't think Abby's Farm is doing anything like this, but it is a little suspicious.   I'm only kidding. I'm sure they're not   manufacturing a rare bird sighting at Abby's Farm.   But the movie is I won't spoil it, but it takes   very, very funny twists and turns.   You go into it expecting one thing, and by the end of it,   the movie has completely   gone a different direction.   And it's it's just a really good movie. I would highly recommend it. And, again, that's Rare Birds. The main character is played by William Hurt, and that's important because I think there are a few movies called Rare Birds. So you want the one,   that that stars William Hurt.  

Alright. We are a, value for value podcast.   What that means is that if you find value in what we're doing, the only thing that we ask is that you send some value back in return.   And that can be in the form of time, talent, or treasure.   And like I've said in the past, treasure's great. If you wanna give us money, get in touch, and we will find a way for you to do that. I guarantee it.   Other than that, though,   time and talent is just as important. You know? Send us a note.   Let us know what's going on in your community. What should we look at? What should we focus on?   Tell us what we're doing right. Tell us what we're doing wrong.  

We really want you to to engage with us and and let us know what's going on in your communities.   And you can connect with us on Facebook. It's Let's Talk Claremont podcast. On Instagram, we're at Let's Talk Clermont.   I've also got metrics and and analytics for this podcast that I noticed a lot of people listen on Facebook,   as well as the website.   But you can find us on on all podcast apps, whether that's Spotify or Apple Podcasts.   I personally like using Podcast Addict,   and you can follow us there and every time you get a new episode out, it'll let you know.   So,   please do that if if, if you feel like it. And you can always email us at info@let'stalkclermont.com.  

For today's interview, we talked to Greg Roberts. He is the Ohio director   of the Ohio River National Freedom Corridor,   the president of Historic New Richmond Incorporated,   trustee with the Claremont County Historical Society.   He's a manager slash tour guide at the Ulysses s Grant, birthplace.   And Paige Craig Paige Craig gave me his name as an underground railroad expert and Ulysses s Grant expert,   and he did not disappoint.   We talked a lot about, Grant.   We talked about the Underground Railroad. We talked about Claremont's role in shaping Grant and the Underground Railroad.   And what I found most interesting is I think a lot of people know that Claremont played a significant role in the Underground Railroad.  

And it's easy to think that, you know, Clermont was this bastion of   abolitionists,   which was true to a certain extent, but it's also more complicated like than that,   as you might expect. So,   I thought it was really interesting to get into kind of the local details of this, you know, national historic event that took place,   during the civil war.   So I really hope,   you enjoy the episode, and thanks for listening.   Alright.   Well, let's start like I always start and just tell everybody who you are and and what you do. Okay.  

[00:10:27] Unknown:

My name is Greg Roberts.   I'm the president of Historic New Richmond Incorporated.   I'm a trustee with the Claremont County Historic Society.   I'm one of the founders of the Ohio River National Freedom Corridor   Group,   and also   assist in the management of US Grant for a place where we're sitting today. Awesome.  

[00:10:47] Unknown:

So   you were your name was given to me by Paige Craig as somebody who's a grant expert in underground railroad expert.   I think I'd like to start with   because everybody hears about grant in the war and and what he did in the war. And you said in your email, there's no it's not surprising that Grant came from Claremont and Brown County. So can you   kind   of paint a picture or set the stage for the world that Grant lived in and and why he became who he is?  

[00:11:16] Unknown:

That's a long narrative. Okay.   And I will try my best. Okay. That's all we're asking.   To give a what we used to call the Reader's Digest for you. I don't have any  

[00:11:28] Unknown:

many people remember Reader's Digest. I remember my grandparents' house. They were always in the bathroom.  

[00:11:34] Unknown:

But,   the understanding   of the culture   River Valley, there has not been a whole lot of research that leads to understanding in terms of what was the environment here in Claremont Brown County that Grant grew up in. And, and so, the tale that I tell here,   And, and so, the tale that I tell here,   is particularly the birthplace because he left here   between, it was either a year, year and a half year old. Okay. Before   his parents packed up and moved   to Georgetown and Brown County. Okay.   But,   the story is kind of,   the background is a little bit of Ohio politics. Mhmm. A little bit of national politics.  

In some cases, a lot of national politics,   but also local politics. Okay.   And   given the fact that,   this   area was the borderland between a free state and a slave state. Yeah.   And that culturally, this side of the river was no different than the other side. Yeah. Same today as it was in in Grant's time. Yeah.   Yes, Kentucky was a slave state, Ohio a free state, and I could go on and on and on how that came about, but   it wasn't the situation   that I was taught. Yeah.   Because Ohio was never tainted by this scourge of slavery. Right.   By virtue of the Northwest Ordinance of 1787,   which rebates slavery in the territory.  

Well, we weren't taught   that   that was not binding on the constitutional convention of eighteen o two that gathered in Chillicothe.  

[00:13:22] Unknown:

So it it actually   when you say it's not it wasn't binding. No, it wasn't. So somebody in Ohio could have owned a slave.   Is that what you're saying?  

[00:13:31] Unknown:

Not legally. Okay.   And not legally   during the Northwest Ordinance and after Ohio became a state. Mhmm.   But the law,   the   the constitution   and the way it was interpreted was a little murky. Okay. And and and again,   it   again went through several different,   precedents as   far as for Supreme Court rulings,   that it   it varied. Sure.   And,   and and so this,   is basically the beginning as far as westward expansion   in terms of this issue of   free state or slave state. Right. And the debate over  

[00:14:15] Unknown:

whether a new state would enter the union. Because that was that was the big kind of controversy is when they started adding states. Yes. And were they gonna be free in slave states? It was amplified  

[00:14:26] Unknown:

to the point of physical violence in Kansas,   Nebraska. Right. And others.   And so, but it's   not   mentioned and I'm very thankful to a very   renowned   historian and the person of David McCullough whose last book before he passed away was The Pioneers.   It's about the founding of Marietta and and also it chronicles   Constitutional Convention for Ohio in 1802 before they could enter union as a seventeenth state.   And he chronicles,   the vote Mhmm.   In Chillicothe.   Well,   Ohio was one singular   vote. I didn't know that at all. Away from entering the union as a slave state. Really?   And   Gary Knapp chronicles this in his book,   Freedom Struggle, about Claremont County Underground Railroad and abolitionist history,   that the two delegates   from Claremont County   voted   for Ohio to enter as a free state. Really? Yes. Well, that seems interesting given its proximity to Kentucky. Well, it's it's it's not just interesting, it's very ironic. Yeah. Because,   in those days, again, this, before Ohio became a state, Claremont County, Brown County,   and parts of Ohio from   Little Miami and heading East to the Scioto,   River where it was part of the, Northwest, not Northwest, it was part of Northwest Territory, but carved out of Northwest Territory as a Virginia military district. Right. I think Paige mentioned that is Correct. Is a lot of, I think she said a lot of people who served in,  

[00:16:08] Unknown:

the revolution from Virginia, they were granted a lot of land. Well, Claremont is French too. Right. There were there were land grants, for soldiers in the revolution.  

[00:16:17] Unknown:

They fought on the winning side. Yeah.   Yeah. From Virginia and Kentucky being an extension of Virginia. Yeah.   And so,   the earliest white settlers here were from the South, Virginia and Kentucky.   And many   of those folks who came, they brought their enslaved people with them. Sure.   Now,   there's evidence. It's over in the county recorder's office. There are manumission papers   because Clermont County was a county before Ohio was a state. It was a county in the Northwest Territory.   And so there there's documentation of enslaved people being   freed when their masters   air quotes. Yeah.  

Brought them to Ohio and Claremont County specifically.   However,   the record is not completely   clean in terms of did   all the enslavers   free their enslaved people. Sure. Brought them to Claremont County. Right. Because frankly, the long arm of the law was not nearly as long. Right. Well, and you think back in that day, it's, you know,  

[00:17:22] Unknown:

like, we talked a little bit, you know, you think of the revolutionary war and everybody was either, you know, everybody in America rose up against the crown, and that's not necessarily the case. I imagine it was not necessarily the case in the early territory that, you know,   they probably still had the same view of slaves that people in the South did. It's so, you know, what is your share if really gonna come over and arrest you for having slaves? Well, probably not. Yeah. And  

[00:17:45] Unknown:

so I believe that that lays the foundation   for the culture   in this Ohio era valley, particularly,   Claremont and Brown County.   Mhmm. It's predominantly,   over the first few years, decades of   expanding white population,   mostly southern leaning   culturally and also   tied economically   to enslavement.  

[00:18:12] Unknown:

There's a lot of tobacco up here too. So imagine, you know, any any farm workers. Right.  

[00:18:22] Unknown:

Dramatically,   Ohio never being tainted by the scourge of slavery. Right. Virtuous Northwest Ordinance of 1787. Well, here along the river,   slave.   Okay.   Because the river was not nearly the the barrier it is today. Yeah. Back in the nineteenth century. So people would literally from Kentucky, they would like rent slaves essentially. Well, again, they would rent out enslaved people. Yeah, yeah. And to build structures on this side of the river. Sure. To plant or harvest crops to back up. I didn't even know that was a practice, but Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess if you think about  

[00:18:58] Unknown:

it, that that would kind of make sense. And so that led,  

[00:19:01] Unknown:

the basis and one of the reasons,   why,   this area became   very actively underground railroad.   Okay. Because all it took was an abolitionist   to rent underground railroad. No, they wouldn't necessarily rent them, but they see old old,   an enslaved person over here   carrying a hoe or a shovel.   Going to work for cousin Bob on this side of the river. Okay.   And,   they they say, whisper in your ear.   Hey. Yeah. Keep up walking here. And Farmer Smith, he'll he'll greet you and he'll tell you where to go from there if you wanna be a free man. That's interesting.  

[00:19:40] Unknown:

So so it almost wasn't as if they were   I mean, I'm sure they were actively smuggling people across the river, but it sounds like   know, head up the road. We just go keep going north, man. Part part of the fabric. Yeah. You know, and not only I bet people in Kentucky weren't particularly happy about that when   slave to somebody and then you come back to them like, Ah, sorry.  

[00:20:05] Unknown:

Yes. Yes. And again, there are so many different stories that, again, it's not what I call sound bite history.   It's very complicated.   As human nature interactions today,   you just can't describe things in in just a few,   short declarative sentences. Sure. It's much more complicated.   And at least for history geeks like myself makes it a lot more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But people don't necessarily have   the same level of what I would call attention span. Sure. For don't bore you the details. Just just   give me the dessert. I'm ready to eat it and go on. My father always says I don't want the birthing pains, I just want the JV.   Exactly. Yeah, exactly.  

And and and so,   the grand family   is, like I said, a microcosm   and   basically representative,   overall of Ohio history and the early selling of Ohio.   Because,   Jesse Grant,   Grant's father,   was born in Pennsylvania. Okay.   Family immigrated   to Northeastern Ohio.   Okay. If you know much about Ohio history and and, I have my own mental picture of, you know,   Ohio,   during   American Civil War.   And   the politics here   in Southern Ohio, very much Southern leaning.   Very conservative.   Sure.  

[00:21:35] Unknown:

Some things don't change. I was gonna say that. That's   pretty much the way it is today. Yeah. And historically,  

[00:21:42] Unknown:

through most of Ohio history, further you get away from the Ohio River up to the Lake Region, Cleveland and others,   more liberal leaning   because the influence of people who settled there from New England because the Firelands,   the Western Reserve   out of the Western out of the Northwest Territory   was set aside   for Revolutionary War soldiers from New England. Oh, okay. And others.   Jesse Grant's father, Noah Grant III,   was a Revolutionary War veteran. Okay. And so they go up to Northeastern Ohio where there are people culturally   wise already settled there.  

Sure. Now, in contrast,   Grant's mother   Hannah Simpson,   they and she also was born just outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.   Their family immigrated across the state of Pennsylvania to the to Pittsburgh.   Came down the Ohio River and settled here in Clermont County. Again,   a more   conservative,   more southern culture.   And so,   Jesse Grant, this is a little known fact   because I think this was pretty much kept under wraps,   particularly   locally.   Jesse Grant, Grant's father,   served a two year apprenticeship, was taught the art of tanning   in a very unique household.  

Okay. And Portage County, a little speck on the map, a little crossroads town called   Deerfield, not Deerfield Township. I've seen some historians   mistake it in Warren County. No, it's Deerfield, Ohio and Portage County. Okay.   Outside of Ravenna,   Kent, just   west of Canton. Okay. A little bit.   About a half hour or so.   And so,   Jesse is trained by a tanner by the name of Owen Brown.   Okay. You know, there's lots of famous Browns. Yeah, yeah. There's the Cleveland Browns. Yeah, yeah.   There's Paul Brown. Yeah.   But this Brown is considered in American history somewhat an infamous family.   This Brown family. This Brown family. Okay. Owen Brown is an abolitionist.  



[00:23:57] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:23:59] Unknown:

He's the father of the radical abolitionist John Brown of Harper's Ferry. I was about to say that I I was wondering if that was where you were going. It was John Brown. Well, you don't have to take my this is not lore. It's in Grant's memoirs that his father, Jesse, was an admirer   of John Brown. So,  

[00:24:16] Unknown:

Owen, but you said his name was Owen Brown.   Trained Grant's father in a in a tannery. Make leather. Yes. I didn't know that at all. Yeah. Again,  

[00:24:26] Unknown:

it's   certain things in people's background. They like to keep quiet Yeah. For various reasons. Sure. It's not gonna do them very serve them very well. Well, John Brown, I don't know much about John Brown, but, I mean, he was a kind of a bit of a rabble rouser. Right? I mean, he was He was a radical abolitionist. Yeah. And he was so committed to abolitionism   that he thought that,   the typical abolitionist,   which was trying to address   the issue of enslavement   peacefully. Right.   And through logic   and other other reasoning.   He says this has gone on too long. It's, you know, we all we do is time to get our guns. Yeah. All we do is talk. It's time for action. Yeah. Yeah. And so,   at the time Jesse   had served his apprenticeship.  

Jesse was 15.   John Brown was 13 and already   a firebrand.  

[00:25:17] Unknown:

Oh, really? And so So they almost grew up together. They lived for two years under the same household. Okay. And and at the age of 12 and 13, I mean, those are formative years. Yes. Yeah.  

[00:25:28] Unknown:

And so, as   I said,   Grant and his famous memoirs mentions that his father was an admirer of John Brown. However, he discounts that   by claiming, and I'll paraphrase, anyone who thought   paraphrase,   anyone who thought they could overthrow slavery   in this country with only 21 on men   had to be insane. Right. Well, they say the insanity charge for Grant's right hand man, General Sherman, Lancaster, Ohio. Grant was just the drunk and the butcher. Right.   And again, all that   I call fake news. Yeah.  

[00:26:03] Unknown:

So he,   Oh, there's a lot there.   So we did talk about this a little bit, and you and you just mentioned it. Can you just kind of pull apart that myth that that Grant was just a drunkard and, you know, kind of fumbled his way through the South or something like that? Well, that, again,  

[00:26:22] Unknown:

that's what when I used to host people and, my dear friend Loretta Furman for almost fifty years was a dozen here. She lived next door.   And once known as the Thompson House.   And Jesse Grant rented this   but as far as the drunk story, I would I would fill in for Loretta and and inevitably I would ask people,   what do they know about Grant? Mhmm. Good, bad, indifferent.   Majority of people   typically say, Oh, I heard he was a drunk. Yeah. I heard he had a problem with alcohol.   And and when I first started here supporting Loretta,   I didn't know any better. Right. So all I my only response was, Yeah, I heard the same thing. Yeah.  

But,   in   the thirty plus years that I've been involved,   I've learned a little bit more about Grant   and the truth.   And and and instead of arguing with people because sometimes people like to argue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, they have strongly held beliefs. And I don't know if they believe   this drunk story or or not. Right. And so I take more of what I would call a Socratic approach. Sure. I said, well, consider this.   In April, I believe it was 04/12/1861,   when we Yankees say that the American Civil War started Mhmm. With the Confederates firing upon Fort Sumter   and Charleston, South Carolina Harbor. Mhmm.  

Ulysses S. Grant is   working in a leather goods store   Glean, Illinois.   Okay. He'd reluctantly accepted that job. He turned it down before, but he was really struggling making ends meet to support his young family. Yeah.   And so that's where he is. He's   in the Grant and Perkins Lettagood store, a partnership with his father and a man named Perkins, obviously,   and his two younger brothers are running the store there in Atlanta.   Grant accepts the position as the clerk. Mhmm. He's keeping the books. Yep.   So there's this lowly clerk   out there on the Western frontier on the Mississippi River keeping the books   when the American Civil War starts. Yeah.  

Three years later,   that same lowly clerk is commanding a million an army. Yeah.   Four years after that, that same clerk is overwhelmingly   elected the eighteenth president of the East United States Of America. Yeah. And so   I'll ask my guest   how does a drunk   go from being a lowly clerk to the presidency in seven short years?   And I might just say the same thing that Abraham Lincoln said about Grant when he heard about his drinking problem.   That's this. Please find   out what that man is drinking.   And give a case of it to every one of my generals.   I cannot spare this man. He fights.  

Yeah. And I try to answer here at the birthplace.   An understanding of what Sherman said was a mystery.   So the grant was a mystery, it's probably even a mystery into himself. Yeah. And I believe that's a very accurate   statement because I'm not even sure he knew consciously   why he had the will,   the determination,   and the fortitude   to prosecute the war Mhmm. How it needed to be. Yeah.  

[00:29:45] Unknown:

Because it was it got really bloody towards the end. Right? It was incredibly bloody. Yeah. And I I think,   obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was kind of what Grant brought to the table was he   and I can't remember the generals before him, but it was a lot of inaction. It was like, you know, but Lincoln was telling him you gotta fight and they wouldn't commit the battles and then Grant came in and just steamrolled  

[00:30:07] Unknown:

them. Well, Lincoln   had stated and and he knew intuitively,   from being a Westerner himself,   Grant being a Westerner in those days,   that   this country could not survive   half slave and half free. Yeah.   And so Grant and Lincoln both,   knew what this war was about Yeah. In terms of the future of this country.   And Grant,   growing up where he did   and what   has not been mentioned very much,   an abolitionist household Yeah.   In an area of Ohio   as overwhelmingly abolitionist   as people would think. Sure. And so if you start talking about and you would be led to believe that everyone in Claremont Brown County here,   freedom loving. Yeah. Abolitionists, Underground Railroad conductors, especially as white males. Yeah. You know, we were the heroes. Yeah. Of course. And,   and that we just love black folk in this Ohio area.  

Truth. I think it's laughable. Yeah.   And so the operatives on the underground railroad, the unwritten heroes,   are the women of the household. Mhmm. Also the free black populations here along the river. And also the free black populations and communities in these rural areas as well that no longer exists. So we we don't appreciate the fact that historically they did exist. Yeah. And the whole story of how they why they don't exist today  

[00:31:42] Unknown:

is another sad chapter in our history, which we which we don't have time to talk about. Well, we'll well, you can come back on it because that actually is that would be very interesting to talk about, and I'd love to obviously do this multiple times if you're alright with it.   But the the one thing I was gonna say is, you know, you hear people talk   about, well, the civil war really wasn't about slavery. It was about x, y, and z or it was about states' rights. And and I always look at people and say, like, yes, it was about a state's right to own a person. Like,   yes, you're right. It was about states rights. I use that statement quite often here.  



[00:32:16] Unknown:

Yes. And   again, I still,   hold a major chip on my shoulder from getting a B plus   my American history   essay   in high school   because I failed to mention   that other s word states rights Yeah.  

[00:32:35] Unknown:

In my essay. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, that's an important part of it. I mean,   the Southern states were worried about their states rights, but again,   it was about a state's right, about person's right to own another person. It's like, okay, well, all right,  

[00:32:50] Unknown:

It's an interesting way to look at it. But but, again, the, And, you know, honestly, I've heard a lot of,  

[00:32:57] Unknown:

I don't know if disparagement is the right word, but looking at Lincoln as if he had different motives than   ending   slavery. Like, you know, trying to flesh him out a little bit more. And I and I just think like, well,   maybe. But you say him and Grant had that same mind of slavery needs to I would encourage  

[00:33:15] Unknown:

people,   to read   some of the things   that a person   who was   a black Republican.   Because his skin color was black, and that would be Frederick Douglass. Yeah. Of course, both Grant and Lincoln were disparaged   being called black Republicans.   Yeah.   Because they thought they were too   strong in advocating   for the enslaved black people. Right.   And, and and so that was,   a disparagement.   Yeah. But read   I encourage people to read what Frederick Douglass had to say about particularly Grant. Mhmm. He held Grant in much higher esteem than Lincoln. Really? Because   I don't think he fully appreciated that Lincoln   was a politician.  

Yeah. He's an elected person. Yeah. And and fact of the matter is is that,   politicians   aren't always free   heart. Right.   Because if they're gonna get anything done, they need to be elected. Yeah. And they need allies. You know? Absolutely. They they need people to work with. Absolutely. So it's an art of typically of compromise. Yeah. Or at least it should be. Yeah. Yeah.   And, and so that's kind of the history of the early republic.   The first compromise was the three fifth compromise to bring the southern states in,   to sign the declaration of independence and to fight   fight for independence. Yeah.  

And and so   slavery became   that the original sin that the can that got kicked down the road. Yeah. And it ultimately   culminated in a horrifically bloody civil war. Yeah. And the scary thing is for a historian like me is that if you understand   the buildup   before the American Civil War,   country today. It's kind of like a deja vu feeling. Is it really? Yes. In terms of people not listening Yeah. To the other side, people not being willing to compromise,   people trying to hush and take the voice away.  

[00:35:21] Unknown:

And again, as famously said, it's happening on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like a divorce. Right? Like, nobody's innocent.   Right? Right.   Yeah. You hear from one person, it's like, oh, well, she's terrible. I can't live with her. And you hear from the other person, Well, he's terrible. I can't live with her. I'm like, Well, there's probably something you're both doing that's not great.  

[00:35:40] Unknown:

And again, just the lesson that   I'm   very   concerned about   that the war meant in terms of   solving   a serious difference   with violence   Mhmm. And division. Yeah. And,   and so, of course, there were those that believe constitutionally that,   that   states did have the right to secede. Mhmm. And there's others who adamantly   disagreed with that. Yeah.   That it was a covenant,   that,   the founder of the country   that was based on   principles that no other country on earth had been founded upon. Yeah.   And so when you look at men like Grant   and   when he writes,   at the beginning of the war,   out there   from Galena Mhmm. To his father,   Jesse, who's living in Covington, Kentucky   at this time.  

They're talking about the politics that led up to Lincoln's election. Mhmm.   He writes to his father saying now   they're political parties is split over the issues. Oh, sure. Which led to Lincoln getting the majority of votes and being elected president or Republican president.  

[00:36:58] Unknown:

And so because the Republican party was born out of this time, right? I mean,   prior to I've seen things of how the political parties have evolved and it seems like they've had kind of similar veins and maybe just a rebranding, but Well, there was an element of the early  

[00:37:13] Unknown:

Republican party that had its roots right here in Clermont County, the Liberty Party. Oh, really? Yeah, that's that's another one. Another one.  

[00:37:21] Unknown:

You've got tons of long stories. But, no,  

[00:37:24] Unknown:

in in this case, I think,   Grant had voted for   Breckenridge from Kentucky.   Okay. One of the split Democrat candidates for the presidency. He didn't vote for Lincoln   in 1860.   But he writes his dad   stating now there are only   two parties. Yeah.   Patriots   and traitors.  

[00:37:49] Unknown:

So he was,  

[00:37:50] Unknown:

I mean, early on. No. He, at the beginning of the war, he considered those who had taken up arms against The United States   as what they were committing treason. Right. They were traitors. Same thing King George thought about. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and so,   and he stays very emphatically in the letter,   to be counted   amongst the former, the Patriots.   Right. And so at the beginning of this war, he considers,   the rebels   treasonous,   traitors.   And I contrast that after   as many as 650,000   or more American lives being lost in this bloody conflict.   Yeah.  

Instructing   his troops at Appomattox when he's accepting   Robert E. Lee's surrender.   To stop cheering, stop celebrating. Yeah. Makes a   statement, the rebels   are our countrymen Yeah. Again.  

[00:38:43] Unknown:

Well, I've heard something similar about Lee,   which wouldn't that have been fascinating to be there in Appomattox and see those two guys sit down? But I I think Lee went to when he went to his troops, and I'm not a historian, so I'm gonna probably botch all of this. But,   you know,   there was a I think,   if I remember correctly,   a fear that a lot of these troops would just start doing guerrilla warfare. Yes. Like, they just go Absolutely. They go, you know, and do raids and things like that. And I think Lee went to his troops and said, we're done. Go home.   It's over.  

You know? And again, I probably bought you No. No. No. Again,  

[00:39:20] Unknown:

part of the so called,   policy, and I'm sure   Grant had conferred   in-depth with Lincoln. Mhmm. Because   I think they knew pretty darn well   that the end was very near Yeah.   For the Confederacy.   And so how are we gonna bring the country back together? Right.   And there were obviously already,   you know,   people   like the assassin Booth that assassinated Lincoln. Others were looking to   rekindle the war Yeah. And start guerrilla warfare.   And,   and and so I think the decision   was made, but   and Grant had been   basically instructed   that we're gonna bring this country back together. Right. Because they pardoned everybody. It was like a just a big blanket part. We're gonna let the South down. Yeah. Easy.  

And and I'm and I'm sure   Grant probably had many axes to grind. Yeah.   And and how magnanimous   it was   and what it did for his reputation   to forgive.   Mhmm. Not forget. Yeah. But forgive   the rebels who are again,  

[00:40:32] Unknown:

at least beginning of the war, considered traitors in his mind. Right. Well, I think that is probably, I don't know how untold it actually is, but   I think it's probably very, very rare when it comes to civil wars for civil war to end like that. Yeah. You know? But, I mean, you look at civil wars in other countries and they'll drag on and it's just bloody and awful and it ruins a country. Well, you can you can just look at world history. Mhmm.  

[00:41:00] Unknown:

Account,   where the leaders   of a failed revolution   Yeah.   Are allowed to walk away   with their heads on it. I was gonna say, normally their heads on a spike. I think there's only one country in the entire world where that has happened. Yeah. We live in it. Yeah. Which is a remarkable thing about this country. And and and and these are stories that that that we need to take to heart. Mhmm. In terms of,   you know,   if you're a blue state, red state, if you're   a black, white, Republican, Democrat,   or whatever,   that this country was founded on principles   Yeah. Yeah. We can have our disagreements.  

But we settle our disagreements   by process.   Right.   Not by taking up arms,   not   by trying to silence   our critics, people we disagree with. Yeah,  

[00:41:56] Unknown:

it's tough. It is. It's ugly. I mean, it's just not a pretty process. It's a lot harder to come up with a good argument   and state your case clearly and then have somebody pick that apart and have to, you know, verbally spar with them than it is to just punch them in the face. I mean, that's a lot easier to do,   especially if you're bigger and stronger, you know? But, you know, I I heard recently the constitution described as,   the best piece of technology this country has ever created.   And I thought that was interesting because it there's nothing really like it. And I think that's probably a lot to do with   how the civil war ended. So,   amicable I mean, it wasn't amicable, I'm sure. I mean, still to this day, I think there's people in the South who are waiting for the South to rise again. But And and again, I I I hear folks  

[00:42:46] Unknown:

that,   mention the fact that   many of our founding fathers were slaveholders.   And   the flowery language   of the declaration   importance and,   the truthfulness   of the words. Yeah.   And God knows we don't always live up to one. Well, exactly.   Who does? Yes. You know? Yes. And   and so again, that is in itself somewhat biblical. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:43:28] Unknown:

I mean, all those guys were well versed in Locke. And I mean, Locke was. Yeah. I remember reading Locke and,   you know, he he had to contend with   man, I hope I don't sound foolish, but   I remember reading and he he made specific   arguments around because, you know, it says the world is for all men. So he had to wrestle with that to to legitimize private property. Yes. You know, how how do you square those two? And I think he did a good job doing it. But I mean, even back to the founding, that's that's the   those are the roots of our country. You know, Locke is, I mean,   the Constitution is basically John Locke just packaged in a different way, you know?  



[00:44:12] Unknown:

Don't think people fully appreciate, recognize,   the significance of that document and that it is   not   a   dead document. No, no.   It's it is intended   be   amended, revised.   But the basic   logic   Mhmm. Of Locke and other   people,   products of the enlightenment in Europe.  

[00:44:41] Unknown:

They're still valid. Yeah. They're still valid. And it's I think it's also easy for people to   take it for granted today that we look at everybody as an individual and everybody has individual rights and that, you know, our constitution tells the government what it can't do, not what we can do. Right. And,   you know, it's easy to, like, oh, well, that's just the way the world works. Like, that's not how the world does. That's a big   Right. Mental and intellectual leap forward in terms of of human   flourishing,   you know.  



[00:45:10] Unknown:

And getting back to Grant. Yeah, I'm sorry.  

[00:45:12] Unknown:

No, no, no, that's okay. Sometimes I go off on weird avenues. If we can, but,   getting back to Grant actually, because I have a question in my head, I don't wanna forget it.   How did Grant go from a clerk in a tannery   to commanding   a million army,  

[00:45:30] Unknown:

you know, fighting the South? Well, to me, it gets back   to,   the fact that   Grant   was a principled leader.   He had fundamental principles that were part of his being that were developed here   in Claremont Brown County.   And even though   he knew,   he grew up   I don't know if as a child he was even cognizant of this and this is the mystery part. Mhmm. But he grew up in an abolitionist household. Okay.   In Brown County. And,   I have yet to fully understand   what the culture was like in Georgetown where he grew up.   But I kind of get the impression that it was not the abolitionist   stronghold   that other towns   in Brown and Claremont County were. Okay.  

And so,   even my hometown of New Richmond,   we have this fabulous underground railroad abolitionist history.   But when you peel back the onion, you find out   that   the folks,   that were active on the Underground Railroad   were a radical minority. Mhmm. And they were underground.   Yeah.   Course, Ripley has this incredibly   well documented   history, particularly with John Rankin and others.   And I'll argue with my friends down in Ripley   that,   by virtue of the fact that   Reverend Mahon up in Sardinia   was caught and imprisoned in Kentucky   for aiding   enslaved people.  

And so there's testimony,   there's documentation,   naming names and places. Yeah. And so researchers   and wonderful book writers like Anne Hagedorn,   had author of Beyond the River, wonderful book,   has this treasure trove documentation   Yeah. To write these stories.   Well, I argue that Claremont County had just as active,  

[00:47:33] Unknown:

and successful underground railroad history, but If they didn't get caught, they were probably even more successful. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I stepped on your punchline. I'm so sorry.  

[00:47:44] Unknown:

That's fine. But, yeah,   I'll say the difference between Claremont Brown County,   Claremont County op just never got caught. Right. Yeah. They were they were good at this. They were much better.  

[00:47:55] Unknown:

I'm so sorry for stepping on your punchline. No. No.   Got so excited thinking about it. I was like, oh, well that just means Claremont was much better. And so, you know, I couldn't  

[00:48:06] Unknown:

I have to acknowledge, I mentioned him before Gary Knapp. I mean, his book Freedom Struggle.   It's recommended reading. I think every high school kid in Claremont County should be should have to read that to understand   things in terms of,   you   know, towns,   like   Felicity.   Bethel,   Williamsburg.   They were   very,   very active on the underground river. Mhmm.   And it's documented.   And Gary highlights that with,   documentation there are and   he was successful in getting 19   sites here in Claremont County listed with the National Park Service Network of Freedom Program of documented, verified   places   Okay. And for many years, Claremont County had more of these sites listed than any other county in the entire country. Really? Yeah. And currently, there's roughly around a hundred   recognized on the network of freedom in Ohio.  

Claremont County has 20 of them. 20 of the 100 recognized. Yes. And that's that's a fifth. That thing, yeah, a fifth. And that's thanks mostly to Gary's work. Okay.   Now he was able to get 19   researched and documented.   Where did the 20 come from? Well, I've told Gary. I said, score right now is Gary nineteen,   Greg one.   And one   veterans   and one documented   a woman who was   a underground railroad conductor down in Cincinnati. Okay. By name of Louisa Paquette. Okay.   And so,   sadly,   a good friend of mine, another mentor, Eileen Witt,   back in the nineteen fifties, the DAR   documented the inscriptions,   pre 1,900   in every cemetery   in Claremont County. Let me rephrase that. Every white cemetery.  

Mhmm.   They overlook the black cemetery. Sure.   Eileen went   and did that work in the, I believe,   the seventies or early eighties.   And and so,   so we have   lists and documentation,   thanks to Eileen, at least   what I would call the tip of the iceberg of the stories,   particularly in in Sumerian Citizen Cemetery, 2 Black cemeteries just on the outskirts of the Richmond.   And   when you find out between the two cemeteries, there's a total of 25   black soldiers and sailors.   Really?   Yeah. Several of the sailors were on the boats that ran the gauntlet   at Grant Siege of Vicksburg.  



[00:51:06] Unknown:

Okay. I don't know about any of that. There's several,  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

all from the same,   regiment,   that were at the siege of   at Petersburg in Virginia. And they were there   at the so called Battle of the Crater. And they're buried here in Clermont County? They're buried here in Clermont County. And, of course, now we're approaching our,   And,   of course, now we're approaching   our two fifty. And   one of the things I think is going on from the county level and others, they're doing mural projects   to commemorate, you know, aspects of American history.   And, also, I believe they're,   going to identify,   the graves of soldiers that fought in the American revolution. Some   are known now   and some have been forgotten. Mhmm. Some of these old cemeteries   left to be overgrown   and are back in the woods, and some of them sadly, I think are under   new developments.  



[00:52:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   Actually, real quick. I'm gonna just reposition this a little bit.   I think it's fine. I just wanna make sure I'm picking you up.   So he so Grant grew up in an abolitionist household.   He's in Galena. He's working.   And then because I   I just know Grant is the general. What did he just get a I'm not obviously, a phone call, but, like, a telegram, like, hey. We need your help. Or Well,  

[00:52:35] Unknown:

Grant,   as I said,   said he was going wanted to be counted amongst the patriots. Right.   And so   he had been trained at West Point,   you know, on the nickel of the federal government. Mhmm. And so he basically felt it was his duty. Okay.   And   likely had taken an oath Yeah.   To the government, protect and defend the US Constitution. Yeah.   And so he immediately   seeks to get reinstated   back at in the mid-1850s,   stationed out on the West Coast. It's Fort Humboldt, California,   and under allegations of drinking.   He resigned, but he'd been separated from his family for over two years.   He had a second child,   that he hadn't seen. Mhmm.  

And so he was lonely and bored. Yeah.   The Indians out there were not,   warring. Mhmm. They were friendly.   Detachments of soldiers there, his his unit,   didn't have much to do. Yeah. And so what again, I've asked I've quizzed many   people with military   experience. I'm not one of them, but I have many family members that serve in the military.   And I had heard that sometimes   that both soldiers and sailors, when they have a little bit of downtime,   may tend to imbibe.  

[00:54:04] Unknown:

Yeah.   You know, I've heard that same thing. You have. And I've vicious rumor. And I've known a couple of soldiers and, that's correct.  

[00:54:12] Unknown:

Vicious rumor. Yeah.  

[00:54:13] Unknown:

Well, Grant also doesn't seem like a guy that does particularly well when he's bored. Like he, of  

[00:54:20] Unknown:

action. Yeah. He's a man of action. Sitting around pushing paperwork just doesn't seem like   I   believe, and this is my interpretation,   that   lonely and bored,   they start playing cards.   And drinking a little bit.   But my interpretation is that, you know, and it starts actually with his birth here. Mhmm. I mean, there is   a legend that's been repeated. It's   it's I'm quite   certain it's not true   that Grant was born a ten and three quarter pound baby. That'd be a big baby. It's a huge baby today.   Yeah. This is Hannah Simpson Grant's firstborn.   Yeah. She's not a big woman. Yeah. And so I've had   obstetric nurses   here,   touring   What would be the chances   that, a pioneer woman,   like Hannah,   as her firstborn, giving birth to a ten and three quarter pound baby? Yeah.  

It's a miracle. Yeah. Yeah. It happened. It was true. Yeah. And   but, I countered that because Doctor. John Rogers,   the abolitionist doctor from New Richmond,   who was a friend of the Grants, attended their wedding   birth. Some say he delivered Grant, but I correct him and say, I think his mother had a little bit. Yeah. And  

[00:55:46] Unknown:

and  

[00:55:47] Unknown:

At best he helped. At best he helped. Or again, I'm not even sure if he was here during the rest of the event. It may have been afterwards to check on mother and child.   But he   family lord would hand it down to Rogers family says that Doctor. Rogers   told Jesse that he better keep an eye on that little one. He may not make it. Yeah. And so he went unnamed for a month. Really? And so Emperor Tally was yeah. Grant. Oh, yeah. I believe they were waiting to see if he was going to survive. Yeah.   Because many, many newborns  

[00:56:18] Unknown:

and mothers died and died and child. Oh, yeah. I think that was probably one of the leading causes of death historically.  

[00:56:25] Unknown:

And so they wait a month and,   he's later christened Hyrum Ulysses.   Right. Okay. And there's even more   attached to that. Yeah. The lore is is that the   family,   were able to gather at the Simpson Homestead up there,   and near   Bantam just, on the beach side of East Fork Lake today, this churchyard there where his maternal grandparents'   grants are buried.   His parents are buried at Spring Grove Cemetery. Okay.   But,   allegedly, they gathered around the Simpson household and each family member   scribbled on a scrap piece of paper their preferred   name. Mhmm. Debating what his name should be.  

And as the story goes, first name pulled out of the hat,   would be his first name. Yeah. And then   second name and middle name. Yeah. Of course, they all agreed on Grant. Yeah.   As his surname.   And so I tell folks that I believe that the process may very well have been rigged. Yeah.   Because the first name pulled out the hat   was his father's preferred name. Now Jesse was a very   strong willed,   bombastic,   braggart.   Mhmm.   Fleet opposite of his wife Hannah. Yeah. It was very, very credit   to the   Lord.   Mhmm. For any good things that ever happened.   And so the first name pulled out of that hat was,   Jesse's preferred name, the great Greek hero, Ulysses. Yeah.  



[00:58:01] Unknown:

So so what's he named after the hero Ulysses? That was the way that came from. Okay. Yes.  

[00:58:06] Unknown:

And that's interesting. And so there is immediately   Jesse   is faced with a dilemma.   Because the second name pulled out of the hat just happened to be   his new father-in-law, John Simpson's preferred name, the biblical name, Hiram. Mhmm.   And Jesse Grant   having been an itinerant   Tanner   marries Hannah,   John Simpson. Her dad has a 600 acre farm. Mhmm. There at around   Bantam.   So he's married up. Mhmm. And so   smart   young son-in-law that he was. He refers   to John Simpson. Mhmm. And he's christened Hiram, Ulysses Grant. Okay. And so,   Jesse being the type of person always wants to have the last word never called him Hiram. Yeah. Always referred to him. So was his name?  



[00:58:59] Unknown:

Technically, his name was Hiram Hiram Ulysses. Ulysses. Grant. That was his given name. Okay.  

[00:59:04] Unknown:

And so   that is the first chapter in the story that leads to the confusion   part of Congressman Hamer who fills out his West Point appointment papers. Okay. Mistakenly   as Ulysses S.   Grant. Okay.   And because he,   he had not been   on speaking terms with Jesse Grant for, I'm told, eight years,   over some   political Ulysses and his Ulysses's father, Jesse, and Congressman Thomas Hamill. Oh, okay. As Dennis now, the local congressman have the authority   to fill out Yeah. For West Point appointments. Yeah. Or any military academy for that matter.   So,   Jesse uses an intermediary   and person of a former US senator Thomas   Thomas Morris is someone who I think academics are just now beginning to discover   in terms of that man's significance in American history. Thomas Morris? Thomas Morris. I don't think I've ever heard of Thomas Morris. Thomas Morris from Bethel   was a one term senator from Ohio. And in those days, the state legislature selected Yeah.  

The senators that weren't popular to vote. Yeah.   Well,   Senator Morris is the first   person in American history   to call for the immediate abolition of slavery on the floor of the US Senate. Really? In 1835.   From Bethel. From Bethel. No kidding. Well, they have a very   illustrative   sign coming into Bethel   Yeah.   Yeah. And the, again, the devil's always in the details.   Thomas Morris was an outspoken   anti slavery advocate and also   a close friend   of Jesse Grant. Okay. And so the people that I talk about Grant's early history,   beginning   with   Owen Brown and John Brown. Mhmm. His father, Jesse.  

The person who rented the scotty's from, Mr. Thompson. Mhmm. The man who hired him as a tanner here at Point Pleasant, Mr. Thomas Page. Mhmm.   The doctor who delivered him. Mhmm.   John Rogers,   Senator Thomas Morris.   These folks all had one, two things in common.   They were close   associates of the Grant family,   and they were abolitionists.  

[01:01:34] Unknown:

Now   is that just   a a a weird twist of I guess, you know, you surround yourself with the people that, you   know, you you like and you are of a mind with, but it almost seems like providence at a certain point that   all of those people in Grant's lives would would be such   staunch abolitionist.  

[01:01:53] Unknown:

Well, and and the   cultural part of this is that,   politically,   these people were fish out of water Yeah. In this part Yeah. Of Ohio.   Yeah. And so they learned like,   this is kind of hasn't changed throughout human history. Yeah.   If you've got   political views or other world views that you know are not   popular   locally, and especially if you're a businessman like Jesse Grant was, trying to raise five kids. Yeah. And needing customers, you're not gonna alienate those customers by going out there and espousing your unpopular political views. No.  

[01:02:32] Unknown:

And Not unless you don't wanna make any money.   Exactly.  

[01:02:36] Unknown:

Yeah. And, again,   nobody really wants signs up to be a martyr anymore. Right. Right.   It's a tough gig being a martyr. Yeah. It's a tough gig. The end is typically not that great. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Martyrdom is not what is cracked up to me. Yes.   And so most people choose not to be martyrs. Yeah. Even though they see see things around them that they detest. Yeah. And they don't believe in, they don't follow.   But hey, they don't want their kids to be bullied at school. Yeah. Yeah. They don't, they wanna go to the cool kids parties. Yeah.   And so they learn to keep their mouth shut. Yeah. And I believe that's exactly   what Jesse Grant did in the in the household that Grant grew up in. Yeah. He grew up in a household   whose   where they would talk and share their unpopular views with people they trusted, people who they knew shared those same views. Yeah.  

And learned   not to be outspoken Yeah. And to the general public. Yeah. I mean, it makes nothing but sense. Yeah.   And and so   there   is the answer to the mystery Yeah.   Why this man fought   when all of Lincoln's other more   celebrated   generals   wouldn't or couldn't prosecute the war. Yeah. This man knew what the war was about by growing up in an abolitionist household here   in the borderlands.   In plain sight   of the slave state of Kentucky. Yeah. And   hearing   things that I think   that he knew either   knowingly or intuitively   from discussions around the family hearth against enslavement.  

Yeah.   And he knew   what had to be done. And it was awful, ugly,   bloody to keep this country together. Yeah. Because  

[01:04:22] Unknown:

I mean, Lincoln was burning through generals too, wasn't he? Yes, he was. Yeah.  

[01:04:26] Unknown:

Because they never had enough men   or materials   to be confident. Well,   and they were sitting on their hands and may some of them may have even been sympathetic. Right. To the southern Well, like you said, the will. Like, Grant took the helm and and he knew what he was fighting. There's there's kind of a joke amongst, civil war historians.   Who was the best confederate general? Was it George McClellan or Robert E. Lee?  

[01:04:53] Unknown:

That's McClellan. I think that was the guy I was trying to remember who just wouldn't commit to anything and He was an excellent general. Yeah. Great organizers and his men loved him. Yeah.  

[01:05:02] Unknown:

But I contrast that because Ego   lead expeditions   against army Northern Virginia   Mhmm. Get their hat handed to them and turn around and head back to Washington with their tail between their legs. Because the South was doing quite well for for   a long time, I think. Well, in steps Grant who has done nothing but kick butt and take names out in the West. Yeah. Hero of Vicksburg, Chattanooga,   Chickamauga   Mhmm. And,   Shiloh,   Fort Henry,   Fort Donaldson   won battle after battle after battle.   Even his own,   leaders are trying to cut his legs out from under. They're so jealous Yeah. Of his quick raise, rise, and popularity,   and   attention by president Lincoln and support for president Lincoln. Yeah. He was very fortunate in the fact that he was out there at that,   can not can that, Leather Goods store in in Galena, Illinois.  

Because being by virtue of being in Illinois   where Lincoln hailed from Mhmm. At the time, there were politicians   that could vouch for Grant and and inform Lincoln this guy is the real deal. Yeah. Of course, Lincoln was also very concerned   about Grant possibly being,   running against him Yeah. In 1864.   Yeah. And and Grant   basically assured him he had no   ambition to be president   and nor did he have ambition   to be president   and run for president in 1868.   However,   he saw what was going on in the Andrew Johnson administration.   And he never mentions Andrew Johnson by name, but later in life he says, he saw that if this country   was turned back into the hands of   what he called mere trading politicians   Yeah. That all the gains of that bloody war would be lost. Yeah.  

And so he felt it was his duty Mhmm. To establish the ideals   that he knew that Lincoln   had foreseen for this country.   And one of them being   working towards   civil rights   for the formerly enslaved Mhmm. Because they knew that if the formerly enslaved   were not provided an education,   voting rights, and other civil rights, that they would forever remain Yeah. Second class citizens. Yeah. I mean, they might not be enslaved anymore, but, you know Correct.   And so, ultimately, after he left office, Jim Crow,   came to be Mhmm. Particularly in the South. But, you know, me being of southern roots myself,   really have a hard time,   pointing,   the finger across the river, all the bad things that happened after the American civil war to southerners. Mhmm. Because the northerners were just as bad Oh, yeah. Were complicit,   and and things that were done in terms of discrimination and,   and not providing   equal opportunities.  



[01:07:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   So you mentioned a couple of times,   Grant, it seems like he has a very deep sense of duty. Absolutely.   And I imagine that was probably one of the things that made him   a good general.   What what in your estimation are the other things that made him the general that he was?  

[01:08:19] Unknown:

Something he got from his mother.   A resolute faith   and a positive outcome.   He also,   practically,   early on in the war,   had experienced,   when he's moving against   an entrenched enemy,   getting ready to face bloody battle. Mhmm. He shows up,   and the enemy has retreated.   Oh, really? It's good to have.   And so he mentions this, I think, in one of his writings, I thought his memoirs that he saw that,   the other   Psy was just afraid   of him Mhmm. As he wasn't them. Yeah. And that the upper hand lied with   those who were   aggressive. Yeah.  

[01:09:04] Unknown:

And so he I think you see that in guys like Patton too. What was his famous line?   French, but audacity, audacity, and more audacity.  

[01:09:14] Unknown:

Or lead follower, get the heck out of the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah.   And and so, again, we're talking about McClellan earlier   once Grant took charge   of the Army of the Potomac, and everybody's saying, well, he beat those, you know, those,   second class Confederate leaders out west.   He hasn't faced Robert E. Lee yet.   Well, Robert E. Lee hadn't faced Grant yet. Right.   And so,   they had the battle, I believe it's the battle of the wilderness where   horrific casualties,   were, taken by both the union and the confederate side, but more on the union side. Mhmm. And so,   Grant   pulls back   and they come to a fork in the road.  

One fork leads back to Washington, the same path that McClellan and other generals had taken   time after time after time. Mhmm.   Grant doesn't take that. Yeah. He takes the road to Fort Richmond. Yeah.   And his soldiers cheer because they were embarrassed   by the fact that   here they were,   a larger, more superior force, continually getting their hat handed to them. Yeah. They finally have a leader We'll do something. We'll do something. Yeah. And use   that superior force Yeah.  

[01:10:36] Unknown:

To ultimately win the war. I was gonna say, because I think from what I understand,   one of the just   I mean, it's a gruesome fact, but one of the deciding factors was the North just had more men to spend at a certain point. Yeah. And that's been used to disparage. Yeah.  

[01:10:53] Unknown:

Because, and that's part of this. He was a butcher. He didn't care about human life. Right. Well, when he faced robert e lee, it was robert e lee   which to engage   the Union Army because he knew he had advantages  

[01:11:09] Unknown:

and and Well, he was a brilliant general. It was a Yeah.  

[01:11:12] Unknown:

Yeah. There's no question about it. Yeah. No question about it. And   had Grant been at Gettysburg and and not Vicksburg in 1863,   Lee's butt would have been grass. Yeah. Because he would have went after him until Yeah. And but again, the Union Army at that time held back and then aggressively pursue once they had the upper hand.   At that time,   that's what Grant's nature. Yeah.  

[01:11:38] Unknown:

Once he once he once he had a hold of you, he didn't let go. Yeah. I mean, he seemed like a man of singular focus. And I get so   committed to duty and and so committed to the cause. Like,   somebody that focused on on his goal isn't gonna let you go. No. No. And, again, he understood,  

[01:11:56] Unknown:

that, you know,   it's a war as hell. Yeah.   And quick you get away and get done with hell. Yeah. Better off everyone's gonna be. Yeah.   And and and and there was not gonna be a compromise. There was not gonna be,   and there were opportunities to compromise and end the war multiple times   and it didn't happen.   And,   and a lot of   it, and it's just, I think, somewhat,   in a not so what I would call direct way,   a lot of the horrific things that occurred   during the war,   you talk about   the terrible conditions at Anderson prison where Mhmm.   Union prisoners of war starved to death. They don't talk much about the northern prisoners were confederate starved and Yeah. Were were mistreated.  



[01:12:48] Unknown:

History is written by the victors.  

[01:12:51] Unknown:

Yeah. That's only partially true.  

[01:12:53] Unknown:

So well, yeah, that's   true. But you're right. Yeah. I mean, you I have heard of Anderson and I have heard about the Anderson, but I'm sure there were union with the background.  

[01:13:02] Unknown:

The background before that   that led up to that is once   the Emancipation   Proclamation   allowed   black troops to be formed, Jefferson   Davis made it clear   that if any black soldier   was captured,   they would either be enslaved or executed. Yeah. And so what did Lincoln and Grant do?   Prison exchanges are done. Yeah.   They also knew that,   strategically,   they could afford to lose more men than the South could. Yeah. I think Napoleon had the same kind of  

[01:13:36] Unknown:

mindset. Yeah. You know, I I think he was one of the first people to raise a civilian army in the way that he did, And he realized he could just spend lives more than any of his enemies could. I mean, it's gruesome. Yes. It's it's a cold look at it, but it's  

[01:13:50] Unknown:

one of the,   comparisons that I sometimes look when I look at the American Civil War,   I contrast it to the Vietnam War. Yeah.   The Viet Cong knew that they could defeat the mighty US Army. Yeah.   I'm sure Robert E. Lee   and the Southern Leaders knew that they probably  

[01:14:12] Unknown:

equipped to defeat the I mean, they weren't dumb men. They they look like you look at the economy, the logistics, the the just population and And they were being very successful as a Viet Cong actually. Yeah. It was.  

[01:14:24] Unknown:

Is that to send as many body bags  

[01:14:26] Unknown:

back north or back across the ocean. Yeah. To wear down the American people's will to fight. Yeah. And that's a huge part of war is the will to fight. Yeah. You know, and when you start seeing body bags coming home, that's what happened in Vietnam, you know? Exactly.   The public wouldn't sport it. Question is, you  

[01:14:45] Unknown:

know, is it worth it? Yeah.   Yeah. Is it worth sacrificing all these young men's lives? Yeah. And then it's always a legitimate question. It is. It is.  

[01:14:55] Unknown:

Oh, I had a oh, no. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you about.   So the war ends   because I actually don't know much about Ulysses s Grant, the president.   Can you talk about him as a as a president and and kind of what he did and   why he, to be fair, I'm not even sure he was a good president. That's how little I know of his presidency. Well, you know, good bad president is always open to interpretation   and Yeah. And I guess it does depend on who you ask. Yes, absolutely.  

[01:15:26] Unknown:

Absolutely.   But,   to preface before I answer that question,   I believe that he was one of our greatest presidents. Okay.  

[01:15:35] Unknown:

I mean, I hear he's a good president. And I'll tell you why. I don't know.  

[01:15:39] Unknown:

Well, you know, again, all they talk about, again, the disparagement   of what they call the so called lost cause and error of the American civil war, it it carried over to Grant's presidency.   Again, he was the corrupt president. Mhmm. Incredible corruption in his administration.   They don't get into the details of the fact that the biggest corruption in during his presidency   was in congress. Yeah.   Again,   inner inner dealings between congressmen and the railroad interest and land Sure. Out in the West.   The   the different,   what I the   corruption in his,   in his cabinet,   he had nothing to do with it, number one. And once he did find out that some of his,   appointees   were corrupt,   he took care of them. Mhmm. They were gone. Yeah.  

They were fired. Yeah. Yeah.   And and and so,   and that part of the story isn't told. Okay. Again, like I said, this man, this was a man of very   fundamental   principles that he adhered to. Yeah. And and rarely compromised on some of those principles.   Honesty   was one of them.   And if he saw that you were dishonest   and were involved in   lining your pockets,   illegally or unfairly,   you were gone. Yeah.   And he tried to appoint people who he trusted.   And I believe he carried over   what worked for him in military,   you know,   the repercussions for not following orders. Yeah.  

And military justice were not the same in the political world. Yeah. And so he trusted people to do the right thing and that is misplaced trust often   and when it comes to political work. Sure.   It's trust and verify. Yeah.   But,   and so as with many stories with Grant, that they all have just a grain of truth to them. That   yes, name me a presidential administration that is void of any corruption. Yeah. Name me a government that's void of any corrupt. Name me any human institution. Well, let's not get into government. Well, no.  

[01:17:52] Unknown:

Well, any human institution   at all. Yes. I mean, absolutely. There's bad people. And and you know what? Sometimes they're really hard to spot.   Yes. You know? Yes. And some are extremely good at covering their tracks. Yeah. Especially when you get to that level of a of a like a government of federal politician, you know. But,  

[01:18:09] Unknown:

Grant,   as far as a story that's not often told. Yeah. And it does explain a few things   locally   is that he   won   the presidential election   first time in 1868   Mhmm.   By incredibly large popular vote, national   national popular vote margins. Okay.   Huge landslide.   Even the South?   Yes. Really? Because one of the things, one of the reasons to give blacks the right to vote. Oh, there you go.  

[01:18:47] Unknown:

Guess what? I bet I bet they were all very happy to have Grant as the president.  

[01:18:52] Unknown:

Yeah. In those days, most of the blacks like like Frederick Douglas  

[01:18:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Were Republicans. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I mean, yeah. Why wouldn't you be? You you those are the people who freed you. Yes. You know? Yeah.  

[01:19:04] Unknown:

Yes. And so,   it wasn't all,   how should I say it? High and mighty. Right. Not not too not overly altruistic. Lofty goals and then franchising the former slaves. Right.   That political party knew that they'd likely be voting Yeah. For their party. Yeah. Absolutely.   And so, again, politics,   you know, the names may change, but Well, it's funny how sometimes those don't.  

[01:19:30] Unknown:

It's funny how those,   what would you call it?   Maybe not necessarily altruistic   political motivations actually wind up   having very good results. I mean, that's Yeah. Like, that's a very cold way of looking at it. Like, well, if we free all the slaves, they'll probably vote for our political party. But   motivation, it's like, well, you know, I guess. But Grant was truly  

[01:19:56] Unknown:

his two administrations with reconstruction.   Yeah. Which is what had widely been panned as the worst period in American history. And I don't know much about the reconstruction.  

[01:20:05] Unknown:

I know it wasn't great, but what were some of the things that he was dealing with that Well, first and foremost,  

[01:20:12] Unknown:

and when he first ran in 1868,   major part of his the platform that he ran under was the ratification of the fifteenth amendment to US Constitution. That's the voting rights Okay. Amendment Okay. To give the formally enslaved men Yeah. Not women Yeah. The right to vote.   Part of that was again   the altruistic,   the higher minded reasoning in terms of quality. Right. But also   practical side from Yeah. National politics.   Effect. Yeah. And of course, you know, when,   when Grant left office   in 1877,   again, he decided he could have easily been elected for a third term. Mhmm. He was that incredible. Because back then, it wasn't like, there wasn't any term limits on presidencies. No. No. No. He followed George Washington's example of of two terms. Yeah. Of course, was codified by the twenty second amendment,   after Roosevelt had four terms. Right. Right. Elected four terms. Yeah.  

But,   no,   Grant had no stomach for politics. Yeah.   And he knew  

[01:21:28] Unknown:

rarity in any politician. Right. Well, I would also say that perhaps a detriment to a politician to  

[01:21:37] Unknown:

You said it, not I.  

[01:21:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I mean,   I don't know many politicians, but, it doesn't seem like the most honest of professions at all times. It's not. And again,  

[01:21:48] Unknown:

to show at least some grace,   it's it's understandable. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. Well, like you said in the beginning, if you want to get things done, you have to compromise. Yeah. And you have to get allies and Or sometimes you you just gotta push through.   Yeah. And suffer the consequences. Yeah.   And so,   but,   Grant,   I think, always   tried to do what he felt was right. Yeah.   And I and, again, I will,   very little is written about his mother. Mhmm. But his mother was a devout   Christian Methodist woman. Sure.   And as far as my she never stepped foot in the White House. Eight years her son was there. Yeah. And there are different speculations.  

And and again, her granddaughter Nellie   married in the White House. Oh, really? Grandma's a no show. Really? She's alive and well   at this time. But people's,   saying I and this is what what what I believe is that   she,   was   such a devout   Christian woman.   She gave all credit to God. Yeah. She thought that if she showed up in the White House   it'd be putting on airs, calling attention to herself,   and all these people fawning of over her Yeah. And didn't want any part. Well, Graham was also kinda like that too, wasn't he? He was. And his humility,   his humble nature,   he was not a person,   that that was   flowery in speech. Yeah.  

He was a man of action. Well, didn't  

[01:23:26] Unknown:

I remember hearing, wasn't it Mark Twain had to convince him   to publish his autobiography?  

[01:23:32] Unknown:

Well Or was it not not? Well, not necessarily. But but there was something like that. It's one of the stories that I tell here   is that,   roughly a year before he passes away, he hits gets hit with a what I call, one two punch. Mhmm.   He's,   learned set the Wall Street investment firm that his son had gotten him involved with, the Grant and Ward, Ferdinand Ward,   was the wizard of Wall Street. Everything this young man touched turned to gold. Mhmm.   Well, as it turns out Yeah. That's a red flag. He was the Bernie Mados of this day. He was a Ponzi scheme. Yeah.   And Grant,   on paper is worth millions in overnight.  

He's penniless and in debt. Yeah. Left holding the bag. Mhmm. Ward skips town. Mhmm.   And and so   about the same time, Grant learns that he's dying of throat cancer. Oh.   And, I'm told that his cancer would be operable today, but in his day, it was, you know, a desinence.   And so,   this is 1884.   He ultimately dies in July of eighteen eighty five, but he writes his memoirs on his deathbed. Mhmm. He had given a verbal   contract to a certain publishing house.   Mark Twain, who's a great admirer of Grant Mhmm.   Learns of this,   talks Grant into  

[01:24:55] Unknown:

getting out of that early verbal commitment and signing with his publishing account. Because Grant was was very like, no, I've made a commitment to these people. I can't.  

[01:25:04] Unknown:

It's remarkable   that Twain was able to redirect him because Twain saw that the other publishing house had offered him   really meager terms. The same terms they'd offer,   an unproven  

[01:25:18] Unknown:

writer. Right. And Twain did. Not somebody who won a civil war and wasn't the president.  

[01:25:24] Unknown:

Twain knew. Yeah. I think it was a pretty good chance   that it would be a best seller. Yeah. Yeah. And he was gonna take the risk. And so he offered Grant very lucrative   terms as far as royalties.   And   so Grant   passes away   just a few weeks before he's finishing the memoirs. Mhmm.   And in those days, they didn't print a bunch of books, go out and sell them. Right. And have the leftovers go   on the Internet.  

[01:25:55] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:25:55] Unknown:

No. They go out and sell subscriptions to publishers. Okay. And so they'd know how many books they had sold before they printed them. Right.   And so Twain comes to Grant's bedside   literally days before he dies   and informs him, general,   advanced sales of your memoirs   is going to net you and your family in excess of a quarter of a million dollars in royalties.   It ultimately was over $400,000   That's equivalent to 13 to $14,000,000 Yeah. I was gonna say that's that's a And so the man died knowing his family was gonna be taken care of. I know I  

[01:26:30] Unknown:

what I like about that is is it does seem like he has somewhat of a happy ending.  

[01:26:34] Unknown:

Somewhat. Yeah. Somewhat. But that's not the rest of the story. No. No.   What's the Well, again, just to give you Oh, you're not gonna make me sad now, are you? Just to give you an indication of how incredibly popular this man was.   And so he dies in July of eighteen eighty five.   He and his family are living on Manhattan Island. Mhmm.   His funeral takes place on Manhattan Island.   An estimated crowd, and there's photographic evidence of this, of over one and a half million people lined this stage in New York. That's more than double the population. And what year was this? This was '18. '18 '80 '5. '80 '5. Okay. His funeral takes place 08/08/1885   in New York City. A hundred thousand men in uniform marched in a funeral procession.  

Both former union   and confederate generals were his pallbearers. This man was beloved and respected north and south Yeah. Black and white. Yeah.   And so depending on what you read, the funeral procession was anywhere from seven to nine miles long. Took about five and a half hours   to wind through the streets of New York.   And so this is indicative of how incredibly   famous he was. Yeah. I mean, there were 300 known photographs of this man. He's the most photographed individual of the nineteenth century. Really? Paparazzi love him. Really?   Yeah. And we've got several photographs of Grant here in the museum.  

And those are,   like I said, just   a handful of over 300 photographs. Yeah. And this, again, is indicative of how incredibly he did a two year round the world tour after his presidency and was the first president to visit many, many foreign countries. Really? I don't know if I knew that. Yeah. And so in those days,   some of the quotes   that   he has said to Otto von Bismarck.  

[01:28:19] Unknown:

That's so funny. I didn't even think   Otto von Bismarck, like he got to meet Otto The German Chancellor. Yeah. Met him.   And, they talked about the war. They talked about, you know, American politics. Well, I think people in Europe too were very interested in the civil war because I if I remember correctly, they were kind of because,   technology was changing. Yeah. And wars were being fought differently. And you I think you kinda saw it in the Napoleonic wars, but the American Civil War was kind of   the first kind of test run of World War one, if you will. Yes. I mean, that's the technology is getting very close to what they used in World War one. So Europe was very interested in how these guys fighting. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Not only that is that again, he said  

[01:29:02] Unknown:

several presidents for protocol. Yeah. Because here he is, the next president.   How do these monarchs and heads of state across the world, Europe, Asia, Middle East?   How do we, what do we do? Right. And so they basically treated him as, visiting royalty. Yeah.   And and   and so,   he had an entourage of reporters that went on the trip that were  

[01:29:28] Unknown:

Like a press corps. Like a press corps. Like you'd have in the Air Force One. They Writing stories about how he is being  

[01:29:35] Unknown:

introduced and greeted and revered in all these different foreign heads of states. Mhmm. And so his name is still in the limelight. Yeah.   And so his name is put up in nomination in 1880,   the presidency again. Really? Yes.  

[01:29:52] Unknown:

But, I mean, I knew he was popular, but I had no idea he was  

[01:29:59] Unknown:

counted by many people in this country amongst   our three great presidents. Mhmm.   Washington the father. Mhmm.   Lincoln   wasn't that popular. Yeah. But thanks to John Lewis Booth, he became known as a martyr. Right. Right.   Grant? Mhmm.   He's up there with Jesus. Yeah. He's the savior of this country. Yeah. I, yeah.   He did that. And so I tell people also   that, you know,   Jesus once said that a prophet in his own hometown   is not honored. Right.   Well, in 1868,   in 1872,   when he was elected both times with even larger   national partner,   popular vote margins Yeah.  

He lost a popular vote in Claremont Brown County.  

[01:30:47] Unknown:

I didn't step on your punchline then. You didn't step on your punchline. Step on your punchline.   Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome.   That's how that you know, that's funny.   That is kinda sad for him, though. Like,   you do all of this stuff in your hometown,  

[01:31:03] Unknown:

doesn't like you. Well, the fact that his birthplace is still here Yeah.   Is also somewhat of a minor miracle. Really?   Because the story goes that   shortly after his death,   all this national   outpouring   of emotion and love and respect for the man,   maybe not so much here. Yeah.   Yeah. But the man who owns his birthplace, they know it's his birthplace. Mhmm. It's well documented.   I believe, again, here comes the old prophet motive. Yeah.   Hirsch, Michael Hirsch, local, citizen that owned the birthplace.   Mr. Hirsch did. Yeah. I believe he came to the conclusion that   I own the world famous president and   general's birthplace. Right. It is the American way.  

I can make a buck. Yep.   So he's here in this little podunk town on the Ohio River, out in the middle of nowhere, Claremont County, Ohio. Yeah.   And,   it the town never grew   to the amount that they had expected it to. It was one horse town when Grant died. It was one horse town now. It was one horse town when Grant was born here. Yeah.   And but in   until '52,   was constructed.   The only way to get it in and out of town by land was the same muddy path that that one horse used to get in and out of town. Yeah. Never became a major steamboat to stop.   And so Hirsch has a problem in the fact that he's gonna make any money. He's gonna get people under money. Yeah. For the birthplace.  

Yeah. And so he saw that as too much of a challenge. So he has a solution to his little problem.   He can't get the people and their money to the birthplace. He'll take the birthplace to where the people and the money is. So he took it on tour.   Well, same today, at least initially, today as it was   in 1885   when Grant passed away.   That place would be the Queen City of the West, Cincinnati, Ohio. Yep. 25 short miles downstream  

[01:33:12] Unknown:

on the Ohio River. So wait, he actually took  

[01:33:16] Unknown:

the house?   He ejected. He floated it down the river? It's just a 16 and a half by 19 feet, one room cottage. Yeah. I mean, it isn't that big. Not that big. Yeah. It's not like there was a mansion on there, you know. Correct. And so, and it's timber frame. Mhmm. And altogether halfway decent, I assume. Yeah. But they jacked it up, rolled it on walls, got it situated on a flatboat barge in a river,   and floated it to 25 miles to Cincinnati. No kidding. Now, in those days,   the canal system is  

[01:33:45] Unknown:

Yeah, well, no, I've We talked about it in fourth grade. We learned all about the canals of Middletown.   Yeah, absolutely. All about that, those canals. And so the Miami Erie Canal went by Middletown. Oh, yeah. It's still there, I think, parts of it. Yes. It emanated,  

[01:33:59] Unknown:

from the Ohio River. And went up to the Maumee and emptied into Lake Erie.   And the canal was operational. And so the barge   that the birthplace was on was pulled up,   by mules Mhmm. Up to Miami Erie Canal,   and it was unloaded   next to   a relatively new structure that we know today as Music Hall and over the Rhine. No kidding.   And so Hirsch hires a school teacher to get tours of the birthplace there and starts making a few bucks. Mhmm.   Well, at that time, this was also indicative of some of the irony and some somewhat controversy   in Grant and   his legacy. Well,   while the birthplace is on display in Cincinnati,   a great admirer of Grant,  

[01:34:53] Unknown:

Okay.  

[01:34:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I've heard that name. He sees the birthplace on display in Cincinnati   and sees it as crass commercialism.   Mhmm. This huckster from Claremont County down there making a buck off this great American hero's birthplace. He believes the birthplace should be a national shrine to this great American hero. Mhmm. Not some, again,   cash cow. Right.   And so he is a determined buyer.   Fortunately,   Hirsch   has got an asking price. He's got it on the market. He's already turned down an offer of $7,000.   He's now asking $8,000.   Quite amount of money. Yeah. Well, I tell folks, I mean, Chinden Ben's from Columbus,   they're all shrewd up there in Columbus.  



[01:35:37] Unknown:

I lived in Columbus for a while. I don't know that I disagree with him.  

[01:35:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I would say hell is real, but no.  

[01:35:45] Unknown:

You know, it's just an aside that you we were talking about the   political leanings of of kind of Southwest Ohio and everything. I've heard people from   Cleveland and Columbus say anything South Of Columbus is just basically Kentucky.  

[01:35:58] Unknown:

So there's a lot of truth in that. There is. There is. Because again, I I as I tell people, historically,   culturally,   you know, here along the river, we're no different. Yeah. I mean, the river is not that wide. No. I mean, you know. No. But   but no, I didn't mean to derail you. Oh, you haven't derailed me. But, no,   Chittenden,   is a shrewd negotiator.   He buys the birthplace from Hirsch for less than half   the asking price. He buys it for $3,000   Really? And so what does Chittendon do after he takes possession of it? This   Well, he takes out a saw and chops it up into pieces so it'll fit on a railroad flat car. Oh, no. And hauls it to Columbus. Yeah. And reconstructs it in a city park, Goodale Park there. I've been to Goodale. OSU campus. Yeah. Yeah. I was just up there last,   last May.  

There's no vestige   of any,   there's no documentation or any,   sign,   recognizing that the birthplace was there in Goodale for at least a couple years. Yeah.   Now there's stories that still, abound, but I've   I've kinda debunked those that,   that Chittenden   took her birthplace on a tour around the nation. Mhmm.   And I've had this confirmed with my   researchers at at the Ohio   History Connection   because   I had purchased a a a subscription to newspapers.com   back in the day because I wanted to know   where the birthplace traveled. If it Yeah. Again, it's been documented several times. It Well, I'm sure I'm sure if they showed up in Toledo or something, the Toledo whatever would be. Yeah. If it showed up anywhere, it would be front page news. Yeah.   Be cool because I'll get a map of The United States. I put little pins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is where this house has been. Yeah. Yeah. And it'll be cool. Yeah. Well,   I found nothing.  

And so as far as we know, the only place the birthplace has been   was here in Point Pleasant where it was constructed. Mhmm. First moves it to Cincinnati,   Chittenden moves it to Columbus,   and then the State Historic Society moved it back. Okay. I was about to ask how it gets back here. Yeah. Well, it came back,   1936 in the depths of the Great Depression.   Okay. They used WPA label, cheap labor, cheap labor to to disassemble it out of a structure where it sat for forty years.   After Chittenden's   possession, it becomes possession of the Ohio Historical and Archaeological Society.   And in 1896,   same year, his tomb is dedicated on Manhattan Island. They dedicate this huge limestone and glass enclosure   that they built around the birthplace to protect it from the elements because, again, Grant is considered its great national hero, his birthplace, a national shrine. Mhmm.  

Hundreds of thousands   of well wishers,   civil war veterans,   and others come to pay their respects to Grant when the birthplace was up here in Columbus   and Good Day, El Cam on the State Fairgrounds. But   in the forty years that it sat on the fairgrounds,   a couple things happened.   First,   all the civil war veterans,   for the most part, got passed on. Mhmm.   But more important, I think more impactful, is the impact of the so called lost cause narrative.   Mhmm. Which a good friend of mine, doctor John, doctor Jim Ramage,   retired professor of history,   from Northern Kentucky University,   revealed that   it was   moreover not just the dollars in the Confederacy, this and that, you know, that that build up, you know, that lost cause narrative   of noble causes of civil rights or   states rights. Mhmm. But it was racist   northern   academics   Yeah. That disparaged Grant's presidency   and and otherwise that   not only was this this bunk bought in the South, it was bought here in the North Yeah. And locally. Yeah.  



[01:39:57] Unknown:

And and so Well, and again, just because just because Lincoln freed the slaves doesn't mean that people still don't have,   you know, terrible racial ideas, you know? Well,  

[01:40:08] Unknown:

I'll correct you on that. Oh, okay.   Lincoln didn't   free anybody. Oh, okay. He didn't have the right to free anybody.   Sure. Emancipation Proclamation was a military   that he did under his   role as commander in chief   because Lincoln was   incredibly,   skillful politician Mhmm. During the civil war.   When it came   trying to apply the constitution,   they were just wayward states that needed to be educated.   They wanted to claim to be a foreign power. Guess what? I'm gonna use the full authority as one of my authority under being commander of cheat in chief. Right. And so it was a military   Okay. Order, Emancipation Proclamation,   which basically   not a single enslaved person   was freed   until Grant's armies freed them. Sure. That makes Yeah.  



[01:41:06] Unknown:

Yeah. And and and so again, that's little little nuances, but No, I mean, that's a big nuance. I mean, and of course, that makes sense. It's not like Grant Grant  

[01:41:16] Unknown:

would have   and and did   was a good soldier and, you know, that's his commander in chief. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And and respected civil authority.   And, and and so so did, so did, Robert E. Lee. Yeah. Because when he surrendered at Appomattox Court House, I've had   historians much more better read than I am,   claim that one of the reasons Robert E. Lee showed up at the McLean House with a brand spanking new,   Confederate General's uniform and his well polished   ceremonial sword.   He wanted to make up an impression, a scene. Yeah. Because he fully expected   to hand that sword over to Grant and surrender. Mhmm. And then summarily be arrested for treason. Right. And he was flabbergasted.  

Yeah. Absolutely flabbergasted   at the terms that Grant gave him.   Allowing his men to keep their side arms and their personal horses because it was planning time.   And that magnanimity,   that   heart,   that Grant showed. And he, some of the terms he made up, and they weren't, I think, on the fly. Yeah.   And and they were all   respected, particularly by Robert E. Lee, and I'm sure his men that  

[01:42:36] Unknown:

they thought, you know, this is bad. This is bad. It could get could be a lot worse. Oh, sure. Oh, sure. And so that I mean, it's never good to be on the losing side of a war. That  

[01:42:47] Unknown:

display of grace   and magnanimity   is what went a long way   to keeping this country together. One of my favorite books on Grant that I that I recommend   is one by H. W. Brands,   historian professor   of history at University of Texas at Austin,   a southern guy.   It's called Ulysses S. Grant, the man who saved the union in war and peace. Yeah.   Not only does he claim that Grant saved the union by winning the war,   but his two terms as president,   he says, and I agree a 10%,   that Grant, because   of   how North and South respected   him as a human being Mhmm.  

Is probably the only person   on the planet that could have kept the country together Yeah. After the war and after Lincoln's assassination.   Yeah. And he's given no credit for it. He's the drunk, the butcher Yeah. For our president. And that is a tragedy. Yeah. It's a tragedy that anyone   in what we now call the Land of Grant Yeah. Would believe and still buy in   to this   fake news. Right.   Right. Because he's one of the greatest American heroes  

[01:44:01] Unknown:

at Barnett. Well, you know, I imagine there's a lot of similarities between him and Eisenhower too. But Eisenhower, I guess, more on a global scale, because I I think the Russian generals probably respected Eisenhower in a way that, you know, you know, after World War two, who who else could have done that? Yeah. But somebody that your enemy   greatly respects,   you know.   So,   let me check the time here because I think I do actually have to get yeah. I gotta get going. I'm sorry.   I could sit here and talk to you all day.   But before I go Sure.  

I think   because it does seem like there's a lot of misconception around Grant. So if there's one thing that you absolutely want people   to know about Grant,   that they might not or they might have a misconception about, what what would that be?  

[01:44:50] Unknown:

I think the main thing that as far as misconception,   and I I think I mentioned it earlier,   that here's a man,   that whose roots,   whose education   sprung   from the soil   and the culture and the people   right here in Claremont Brown County. Mhmm.   And,   sadly, I think we weren't taught   all the details.   We were taught I was taught a lot of mythology, in some cases, downright lies.   Mhmm.   And to always,   number one, on a big picture question.   Question what you're talking about. Yeah.   Verify. Yeah.   Check out the sources.   See if there are alternative sources.   Mhmm. Fundamentals   of   our   democracy.  

Mhmm.   And   He knew the fundamentals of our democracy.   Mhmm.   He clearly knew   right from wrong,   and he and he was full of ironies in terms of his   life path.   He marries into a slave holding family.  

[01:46:15] Unknown:

Does he really? I didn't know that either. Yes.  

[01:46:18] Unknown:

In fact, he's one of 12 of our first eighteen presidents   who   are counted amongst those who own the slave.   In this case,   he is not clear whether or not he actually had title, but his father-in-law in Saint Louis, Colonel Dent,   gave him   an enslaved person named William. Mhmm.   Well, Grant   worked side by side in the fields by William   and never treated him Really? As an slave person. Yeah. And ultimately,   when he was struggling,   dead, busted,   broke,   and getting ready to take that job in Galena. Yeah, yeah.   He takes William over to the courthouse there in St. Louis   and frees him. Really? Yes.  

And so William would have been,   of course, enslaved people were the largest component Yeah. Of of gross domestic product. Yeah. They're most valuable commodity Yeah. In the country bar none. Yeah. I mean,   enslaved people could be used as collateral for loans. Mhmm. And and and, again, it's hard to imagine how much our economy,   both North and South,   were   founded and based on the slave economy Yeah. And the slave trade.   And these are little things that, again,   Yeah. And that's why I encourage people, don't always buy the sound bite history. Yeah.  

[01:47:47] Unknown:

Well, that's just a good rule in general. Don't always buy the sound bites. You know? But,  

[01:47:51] Unknown:

again, the fact   And you   need to   study. Don't   read.   Gotta read a lot. I'm sorry. Yeah, no.   And don't and again, here's an easy one. Don't Don't always believe what grandpa told you. Yeah.  

[01:48:14] Unknown:

Or your teachers in some cases. Yeah. No. Well, you know, you like you said, mythology. And   I think there's probably a lot of mythological characters in United States history that Yeah. When you started, like you said, peeling back the layers,   they're they're people.   Yes. It's all people. You know? Absolutely. It's not like Grant was actually Jesus Christ. I mean, he he was a person. He had flaws. He had good traits. He had bad traits. He made mistakes, had great triumphs.   But I think on balance,   like you said, he he was a great man. Yeah. Well, I I  

[01:48:48] Unknown:

I state that   Grant had one,   what I would call,   tragic human flaw.   And,   again, most people say, well, that's not a flaw. That's an attribute. That's a   he trusted other human beings to do the right thing. Yeah.   And, sadly,   you can't do that. Yeah.   And so when he left office, he thought   the right thing   would be done   by the formerly enslaved people that he fought   more so than anyone else in American history. He's the first civil rights president. Mhmm. And many people think that that's was   the basis   for the disparagement   that he faced Yeah.  

Later. Yeah.   And now I'm happy to say I'm amongst one of   a good group of modern historians that are going back and looking at the actual record,   primary sources. Mhmm.   And   why was this guy so feared and now such a bomb? What happened? Yeah.   Well, we know what happened. Yeah.   He had his detractors,   as president,   and those   detractors   that were against   his   efforts   to have this country live up to the its founding principles Yeah.   Couldn't have a great American hero   like Grant   standing for those things. Yeah.   And so it's you know, when I say, you know, you can look at world history and it's the conflict between the two versions of what are called the golden rule.   First one, the biblical one, do unto others as you would   have them do unto you. Mhmm. The second one,   he who has the gold makes the rules. Makes the rules.  

Yeah. And that's world history. Yeah. Right there summed up in those two conflicting   you   know. Yeah. Stories. Yeah.  

[01:50:47] Unknown:

Oh, well, I I don't know how long we've been doing this, but, like I said, I do have to run, but Yeah. Okay. I I really appreciate you doing this and We didn't talk about the underground railroad. I know. Well, and that's what I'm that's what I was about to say. I'm gonna bother you again   probably very shortly to come back and talk more about this because I think there's, I mean, even Grant, I feel like we barely We can't Well, scratch the surface. Here's I just tell you some of the dynamics here. Now,  

[01:51:13] Unknown:

we just combined forces with the Grant Homestead Association. We're now a new organization called the Land of US Grant. I want it to just be simply the Land of Grant, but we had Ohio State people. Yeah. Up there. Right.   It's   the land of grant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   But,   no,   I ally   this   with   both local   Ohio   history sites,   not just the Boyette Home, but also the Rankin House. Mhmm. Because the Rankin House, from an economic standpoint, gets four times as many visitors there Really? Than we get here. Really?   And it's wonderful,   million dollar visitor center.  

It's   again, they do a great job down there. Mhmm. Schools go there regular Mhmm. Because they teach underground railroad as part of the curriculum. Mhmm.   And, and so, so,   oftentimes   Grant is left   out of   the underground railroad.   The, and slavery in general. Sure.   But,   you know, based on what you just heard from me, you know, people look at me and say, kind of, give me a quizzical look.   It goes back to what I said about,   John Brown. Mhmm. Insane. Only 21 armed men.   But my punchline again is that   Jesse's son did it with a million armed men. Yeah. End of slavery in this country. So I say, you want to talk about abolitionism,   underground railroad, blah, blah, blah, blah.  

Well, the ultimate abolitionist was born right here in Claremont County. Yeah. The guy who ended slavery. Yeah. And you can argue with me all you want. You can give Lincoln the credit. He'd be happy with that. Yeah.   But not a cotton pickin' soul.   Oh, that's kind of a double entree.   Yeah.   Was freed   until Grant's army is free.  

[01:53:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, that's actually a good segue, because at the end of this,   I always like to give people the floor. So why don't you tell everybody again who you are and how to get involved or if you wanna come here where it is and and,   just the ways that they can interact with, with you.  

[01:53:33] Unknown:

Manage The US Grand Birthplace here in Point Pleasant, Ohio down along the scenic Ohio River here in Claremont County.   Encourage anyone, particularly local folks who have never visited this place. I get lots of people say, I go by there all the time. Never, oh, and the guy in front of me just Yeah, no, I said that exact same thing when I walked in here. I was like, I pass this all the time. I've never been here. And don't take offense when I say shame on you.   We're not stopping in here. I understand we're all busy with our lives, but,   it's it's   a significant place in in our country's history.  

And the stories we tell here are of a man   who more than anyone else, I will argue, into slavery in this country.   And it's a testament   of, I think,   every parent would like their child to be   Someone who's hardworking,   determined,   principled,   knew right from wrong, and always tried their best to live out those values.   And, and so again, these are   what every American and particularly   at here in Clermont, Brown County, we should be proud of and should celebrate.   And so we try to celebrate Grant with every group that comes down here and visits   encourage people. And also you can get involved,   by,   volunteering. Mhmm.  

We staff the birthplace   now,   with,   undergraduate   students,   from University of Cincinnati Claremont branch.   They,   learn about Grant and they're rewarded,   with a scholarship   and credits through UC. Nice. And so it's been a wonderful partnership   and we're, again, we would gladly open this up to other universities, other opportunities for,   particularly undergraduate students that are interested in American history.   You don't have to be a grant scholar.   You don't even have to be, you know,   read it. The only real requirement here   is that you can carry on   a   intelligent conversation with another human being. Well, that's That shouldn't be so hard. That that's  

[01:55:46] Unknown:

that's a pretty low bar. You know what I mean? Well, well,  

[01:55:50] Unknown:

maybe not. Let's not go there, Ben. Yeah.  

[01:55:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Alright. Well, with that, I'm gonna call this a successful podcast. And like I said, I'm probably gonna be bugging you in the future to come on and do the scan if you don't mind. No. But thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yes.   Thanks again, to Greg for sitting down, with me and talking.   Enjoyed the interview immensely,   and he's actually given me   some, book recommendations,   about Ulysses s Grant. So I've got some homework to do,   and I'm gonna try to read as much of the as many of those as I can, and we'll have him back on, to, you know, maybe   dive into some,   some of Grant's history and Claremont's history,   a little bit more.  

So,   I hope you enjoyed the interview, and let's talk about some events.   We have the Union Township Farmers Market.   This is gonna be a weekly event, and it starts, June 6, and there'll be another one on the thirteenth   and another one on the twentieth. And I'm pretty sure they have a concert following each each,   each of these farmers markets, so you can stick around. I mean, we'll obviously talk about the concerts coming up here.   But,   the farmers market,   starts at 04:00 and PM and runs to 7PM.   That's gonna be at the, Union Township Civic Center Amphitheater.   And it's it looks like a pretty standard farmer's market. You're gonna have a bunch of local vendors   selling fresh produce, meats, baked goods, plants, honey, all kinds of stuff. So if you're looking for some good local, products, I would head out to the Union Township Farmers Market and stick around for the Union Township summer concert tour   or summer concert with the Bronson Arroyo Band. I hope I'm saying that right. And, this concert will be on the sixth.  

It runs from seven,   7PM   to 9PM.   And that's also at the Union Township Civic Center, amphitheater.   And it's just gonna be live music. And if you show up for the farmer's market, there'll be food trucks there,   and you can hang out until the music starts.   And it's free. So can't beat that.   We have National Trails Day, June 7 from 9AM to 1PM   at Afton Zagar Road.   And this is the, Clermont County Parks Department, East Fork State Park, and Friends of East Fork   are all gonna be there to celebrate their hiking and biking trail.   And there's gonna be, booths all along the trail and at the campground,   Cane Bridge, and at the overlook,   there's gonna be some activities and some info. So that sounds like a fun day.  

Knee high naturalist for June. I really like these knee high naturalist,   events.   This one's called colors of nature, and that's gonna be on June 7 from 10AM to 11AM at Shore Park.   It's free.   It's a preschool focused program for three or five year olds,   and they'll read and do some crafts and explore nature's cover colors.   And that's gonna be followed by some just kinda play time and discovery time.   So if you got some young kids, I would check that out.   There's a family music picnic on June 8 from 6PM to 8PM   at the Cincinnati Nature Center.  

And it's just an outdoor concert. Local singer songwriter, Katie Pritchard, will be there.   Pack a picnic,   and you can just hang out and listen to some music.   It is free for members,   and regular admission for nonmembers.   There's a landowner conservation   chat called Pest Problems on June 11   at 06:00PM   at Clingman Park.   It's free, and it's just an educational session, and it's gonna focus on invasive insect pests.   And there'll be some ex experts there that can, help you identify these pests and give you some good protection strategies.   You don't need to register for this, so you can just show up and learn how to protect your garden from from nasty pests.  

There is a cicada jewelry class on June 12,   at 7PM at Clingman Park.   You, get to create jewelry using real cicada wings.   So if you wanna commemorate this brood,   with a pair of earrings or a necklace or something like that,   I would, would check that out. It is free. You do have to register, though, and it is for ages 10 and up.   There's another Union Township Concert this time on the thirteenth,   and it's gonna be following the farmer's market.   It's gonna be 7PM to 9PM,   Union Township Civic Center Amphitheater.   And this is gonna be live music. This time, it's gonna be Hi Fi Honey.  

Looks like they just play a variety of pop and rock and country, Motown favorites.   And, again, get there early, and you can check out the food trucks and the farmer's market,   and, it's free.   So   that's awesome.   Sunset River Paddle on June 14 at 7PM.   This is gonna be at Shiloh Park.   It's a guided sunset canoe trip on the Ohio River. You'll be exploring around the Crooked Run   Nature Preserve.   All the equipment's provided. It's free. You do need to register though, and it is only for ages 12 and up. So   don't be bringing your five year old on a,   sunset canoe trip. That would be probably an awful idea.  

There's also June in Old Williamsburg.   It's gonna be June '21 to the twenty first,   at the old High School grounds at Williamsburg.   It so the festival is gonna kick off Thursday at 3PM, and it'll continue through Saturday night.   There's gonna be a five k color dash run, lively parade,   dozens of craft and food vendors. There'll be a carnival   with rides, and there'll be kids' activities, live music,   and a beer garden for, adults, and it is also free. So,   head out there on, the nineteenth through the twenty first and check it out.   And the last thing we have is another sweetheart stroll on June 20 at 08:30PM   at the Kelly Nature Preserve.  

Just like the other one, it's just a romantic lantern lit evening stroll,   through the park after sunset. You pick up a lantern and a trail map   at the trailhead,   and then you can just explore at your pace,   the trails of Kelly Nature Preserve, and it's free. So if you're looking for a place to, to take your sweetheart on June 20,   I would check that out.   Alright. Well, thanks again for everybody,   listening,   and, you know, sharing our stuff and and liking our stuff. We really appreciate it. And again, we are a value for value podcast.   So if you get any value with this, we just ask that you send some value our way in, the form of time, talent, and treasure. And we really wanna hear from you. And so, you know, connect with us on Facebook at Let's Talk Claremont podcast. We're on Instagram,   at Let's Talk Clermont.  

You can email us at info@Let'sTalkClermont.com.   And like I said in the intro, if you have some kind of podcast app like Spotify or Apple Podcasts,   anything like that, follow us on there. And that way, you'll be notified whenever,   a new episode comes out.   So we've been ending these with,   I used to call them Olive Wisdom.   Olive is my five year old girl, but she doesn't always say the wisest things, and that's not really   what it is. So I think we're gonna try olive isms. We'll we'll give you your weekly olive ism.   So last weekend, she had her dance recital,   and it's a big to do. And, you know, she had a kind of a costume to get dressed up in,   and, my wife's trying to get her ready, and she's trying to convince her to go to the bathroom before she gets this, you know, elaborate get up on.  

And she's just, you know, go to potty, go potty, go potty, go potty, and Olive looks   at Katie   and goes,   shiver me timbers.   We've kidnapped Olive. I'm a pirate.   Argh.   And I don't know how you respond to that. That is I don't even know where she found out about pirates. So so there is your oliveism   for the week.   So, again, thank you for listening.   We really appreciate it, and, we hope to see you next time.